The Assistant Principal Podcast

Frederick: Today's show begins with a
40, 000 foot view of student voice and

then takes us right to ground level
to break down implementation of a

specific practice for elevating not only
student voice but also teacher voice.

Are you ready?

Lindsay Lyons is an educational
justice coach who helps schools and

districts co create feminist anti
racist curricula that challenges,

affirms, and inspires all students.

A former New York City public school
teacher, she holds a PhD in leadership

and change and is the founder of the
blog and podcast, Time for Teachership.

She believes a secret sauce of
educational equity is student voice.

Hello, Lindsay.

Welcome to the show.

Lindsay: /Hi, Frederick.

I'm so excited to be here.

Frederick: Yeah, this is going
to be fun before we jump in.

I'm really eager to do that.

But before we jump in, tell me,
what are you celebrating today?

What

Lindsay: a question.

I love that.

I am celebrating that.

My kid loves bubbles so much that
he was tantruming last night and we

put bubbles in the bubble bath and
he was just like, I'm a happy child.

And it was like a miracle.

Frederick: Wow.

I will not tell you how many
years it's been since we had kids

taking bubble baths in our house.

Oh, but you enjoy every stage,
every stage has its special things

and bubble baths are part of that.

That's right.

Lindsay, is there a story that
would help listeners understand why

you're doing the work you're doing?

Lindsay: I think there's a lot of
stories, so choosing one is hard, but I

think that the reality of how I grew up.

And what I did not experience, right?

I think oftentimes we're looking
for things that we didn't get

as children, whether we're in an
educator mindset or a parent mindset.

We just want things different
than how we had them.

I did not experience.

a curriculum, a student body, a
teaching staff as a student in,

in my K 12 experience that pushed
me around questions of justice and

injustice that enabled me to create.

And specifically to create solutions
to problems that I saw in the world.

In fact, I was often silenced when
I brought things up, and educators

in my space were actually silenced,
for lack of a better word, and

kicked out of the district if
they were to bring in content that

questioned things like gender or race.

I had one teacher that introduced books.

Their eyes were watching God,
there's a feminist text that he

introduced and led those conversations
around race and gender justice.

Wasn't there like a year or two
later, you know, it was just like

a quick blip and then, then gone.

And so being able to see what
was possible, but not to really

experience it as a student day to
day, all the classes, every grade.

Really made me seek it out.

And so I got some of that in college.

It was really exciting.

I realized that I wanted to solve problems
of the world, but I was too focused

on once the problems had happened,
I wanted to do something about it.

So I wanted to be a domestic
violence lawyer, for example.

And then I was like, this is really hard.

The bad things have happened.

I want to prevent them from happening.

Where do I do that with children?

And so that's how I became an educator.

Frederick: Wow.

What a beautiful story.

Thank you.

. So we're going to talk about what
you've termed pedagogy of student voice.

So before we dive into
it, let's define it.

What is pedagogy of student voice?

.
Lindsay: So I have always used the
phrase student voice in line with the

field of student voice research that
I'm part of, but I recently heard

pedagogy of student voice in, I think
2020 the book street data came out

from Shane Safir and Jamila Dugan.

And I was like, running with it.

So they have six rules of it.

They say it's about having student
talk time exceed teacher talk time.

I think they use a Hamilton phrase.

They say, talk less, smile more.

And really they're talking about like
at least 75 percent of class time.

Students should be talking, or if
not, literal speaking, like, you know,

engaging in some sort of creation.

Valuing questions over
answers is their second rule.

Ritualizing reflection and revision,
which we often don't make time for,

making learning public, and that's for
educators and adults as well as children.

Circle up as a specific practice,
and I think about a lot of protocols

or activities that you can do,
so having those at the ready.

to amplify student voice.

And then the sixth one
is feedback over grades.

So that real focus on progress versus
perfection and that idea of, you know,

getting to be the best you can be
versus that idea of hierarchy that is

way too common in educational spaces.

Frederick: I love this because it opens
a lot of space for not only student

voice, but I think for relationships.

Relationships between students because
In this kind of a venue, they're really

going to get to know each other more.

But also that relationship
between teachers and students.

I'm doing a lot of work right
now focused on classroom culture,

which I think has three components.

The relationships piece, the management
piece, and then how we keep students safe.

And when I think about that relationships
piece, I think about students and teachers

having a relationship along two lines.

One is kind of the learning centered
relationship that is as a student.

How do I relate to you Lindsay as a
teacher of the subject of the content

and then there's the other side of
it, which is the Learner not learning

the learner teacher relationship.

So how do I experience you as?

As another human being in this classroom.

Right?

And and so if I, if I have a strong
relationship with you from a learning

perspective, and from a learner
perspective, then you're going to be able

to reach me and support me in ways that
are much stronger if we don't have those.

So it seems like this really ties
in to this idea of student voice.

And I'd like to just Open that up
and let you run with that a bit.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think if I had to distill
down that big definition of pedagogy

of student voice, I like to think of
it as a co creation which to co create

with students in an authentic way, you
need to be able to have that trust.

and that human piece built and
you need to know enough about your

curriculum and instruction that you
can flex with whatever it is that the

student needs or is interested in.

And so I think from a planning and
curriculum perspective, there's

definitely a lot to be said about
that model, which I absolutely love.

Thank you for sharing that model.

And then I also think from a.

practical sense of like, well, what
does it look like to do something

tomorrow that does both of those things?

I would say my number one protocol
to do and to do with staff, as well

as teachers with their students.

I think everyone benefits from this
practice is circle or circle up.

And so from indigenous communities,
we've learned, you know, this practice of

circling up, having a talking piece past.

Sing it around and literally giving
everyone this democratic space to share,

sharing about self and stories and
personal connections to material, and

also sharing in response to content,
but democratizing the space so you

don't have the kid who's the loudest
get the most say in the conversation.

Frederick: This sounds
like a powerful practice.

And I think we're planning to
kind of dive into this, right?

Mm hmm.

Here today.

I, something just popped in my head
though, as you were talking, when you said

co create and, and needing to be flexible.

And I'm thinking about
what does that look like?

How do we do that with students?

And then it just hit me.

Some of the things we've been talking
about recently in the assistant

principal podcast about working
with veteran teachers are really.

Any teachers and helping teachers grow,
helping that professional development

piece, and I'm a strong advocate that
teachers should be in the lead with that.

But that relationship really is a co
creation relationship with teachers.

So if I'm an assistant principal and
I'm trying to support teacher growth.

In some ways, I think that's going
to mirror me as a teacher creating,

you know, student voice, giving room
for student voice in my classroom.

Like it's the same, kind
of the same relationship.

Yes.

Oh

Lindsay: my gosh.

Yes.

It's the same thing, right?

We always used to...

to say in the school that I worked
in, and they have a whole network.

Their model is one learning model for all.

So the same things we do with adults
is the same things we do with students.

And the students see that latch
onto that, appreciate that.

And it all works better that way.

Frederick: I want to, as we move
into the circle piece, I'm going to

share with you, a version of this,
but I am not claiming that it is.

Correct in any way.

In fact, I want to start with it
because I suspect it's flawed,

but it's something I can do.

And I just started doing.

And I think sometimes that's a good
way for us to start these things.

So I'm going to share what we do and
then you can help guide me through

it and improve and build on it.

Sounds great.

Okay, so I train a lot with nonprofit
and governmental leaders and now

we usually have small groups.

So we're.

7 to 12 people and at the end of training
sessions, we will circle up and these are

groups that meet a total of four times.

So after the first time we
all know each other, right?

So we'll circle up at the end.

I provide three prompts and they
are , what are you going to be

thinking about on the drive home?

Do you have a challenge for the group?

Or is there a thank you that you
would like to share and they,

they're supposed to only do one of
those because right, even with eight

people that could take a long time.

So we try to really keep it succinct.

We circle up.

I've had colleagues that have done that,
that have said you're allowed to pass.

You don't have to participate.

I never put that out there.

I just put it up.

We have these three options.

What are you thinking
about on the drive home?

Do you have a challenge for the group or
do you want to say thank you to somebody?

And then we go and I go last.

Usually.

All right.

So tell me how to make that better.

Where did I hit it?

And where am I missing?

Lindsay: I mean, I think that's
beautiful, but I think the thing about

circle is you can't really do it wrong.

And so the one, the one thing that I
think is important is the structure.

So it sounds like you have
that structure of the circle.

I said one thing.

I'm going to say like three things
in the structure of the circle, the

democratization and of the facilitator or
the keeper of the circle sitting as well.

And to have nothing in the
middle, except maybe a centerpiece

that's co constructed to do this.

I actually love having index
cards for everyone to fill out

and they just write the name of a
person that is important to them.

It could be a young person if you're
specifically, you know, thinking about

education spaces, but then you immediately
have something that, you know, is.

is a centerpiece.

And so that's the structure.

The only other piece of the structure is
there's an opening and a closing ceremony.

And the reason as explained to me for this
is that circle is a very different kind of

conversation than a typical class, right?

Where students can shout out or they can
raise hands or interrupt or whatever,

you know, and so just to preserve the
sanctity of the circle space to open

and close, but that opening closing
could be, you know everyone make.

A face or a movement based on
how you're feeling right now.

You know, it could be really quick.

It could be I've done when the bell rings
and we're wrapping up class real fast

It's like group clap everyone clap at
the exact same time, you know something

quick but we're honoring the start and
end and then literally any questions.

So I love all of those questions I I
think anything that connects with your

group anything that enables choice
like you give them choice and what

they're selecting and that idea of
you know, what is important to me?

What am I still thinking about?

What am I challenged by?

You know, those kinds of questions
are the best because they're not just

academic in terms of what content
did I just learn and what am I going

to do action wise tomorrow, but how
am I going to be feeling about it?

I'm feeling overwhelmed, you know,
like my challenge is there's so much

good stuff and I can't do it all right.

That's also like the human part.

So to go back to your model, I
think you have both there and

those questions, which is great.

Frederick: So one of the.

Big things we're trying to do.

We're, we're elevating student voice,
but the way that works with circle

is students are getting choice because
most of the time when we do a circle, we

are giving some kind of choice, right?

So we're giving choice.

It's something that.

I think allows students to connect with
whatever we're doing, but also allows

human connection in general between
students and teacher and everybody.

And then if we're doing it right
and we're getting the prompts right,

the choices, then they're also
connecting to their self, which means

they're connecting to that voice.

And that's where.

That part of the win comes in.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think, I mean, I can
give some concrete examples.

I don't know how deep
you want to go in terms

Frederick: of what this looks like.

Yeah, I do.

Well, cause the other, the other
question that popped into my head,

I made an assumption like I always
do it at the end of the training.

But as I heard you talking, I
think you said that maybe it

can go into different places.

So I need to step back
just one sec and say, okay.

From an overarching perspective,
what is the role of circle in the

classroom that promotes student

Lindsay: voice?

Oh, such a good question.

Okay, so there's layers to this.

One is you're building the foundational
community and the foundational.

A set of agreements, ways of interacting
with one another to enable you to

tackle things that might be challenging
emotionally that might deal with

justice or injustice that might
personally impact a lot of students.

And so you're kind of building that
foundation to be able to have those

hard conversations if that's what the
student brings up or the student has a,

you know, a personal connection that is
fraught with emotion around those topics.

So I do a lot of justice work.

So I think that's, that's
important to build that

community, to be able to go there.

You're also, I mean, usually
one of my first ones.

So just to give a concrete example, I
think would, would best illuminate this.

But one of my first circles is
typically the story of your name.

And so on that level, you're
just building community.

You're not really doing a lot of things
academically, but you're just asking

students, tell me about your name.

And that's the prompt, right?

You can give a lot of sentence
starters and stuff, but some students

will tell me, you know, their, about
their last names and how they have

both their mom and dad's last names.

And this is cultural and, you know, or
some people will be like, I hate my name.

No one can pronounce it right.

This is how you pronounce it.

And they teach the class, you
know, there's so many different

directions you can head with that.

And everyone has something to share.

About their name.

So I think that's that's a way that
it's just pure human, not so much

of the academic and instruction.

But then from there, you know, you
go to something about current events

like this is a staff circle and I can
I'll share these resources as well

with your listeners so they can like
literally just grab the slide deck.

But We were in class or in, you
know, in the year that Trump

was elected to the presidency.

We were, as a staff community,
grappling with, we are at a school

where we have all students who are
newly immigrated to the country.

How are they going to be
feeling about this and how do

we facilitate class, right?

And so we're like, we need to
first figure that out as a staff.

Before we go teach class
tomorrow, kind of thing, right?

So, one of the things we
did was talk about that.

And so, it was like, literally, what
is the word first word that comes

to mind when you see, you know,
and then like, a magazine title.

So for that, for that would be like,
newspaper headline of like, Trump winning

the presidency or something, right?

Whatever the current event is.

So it's literally just
word association at first.

You could do this with
students current events.

You could do it with a,
a reading assignment.

Then maybe you give a couple minutes
to read or listen to a podcast or

hear, you know, commentary, whatever.

And then the next prompt is
literally make a connection.

So it's not debating something, right?

It's not saying here's what's
right and here's what's wrong.

And this is my position.

I'm never moving.

It's saying, what's a personal
experience you have related to the

word that you associated with this
current event or something, right?

Like, what's another story that
you want to tell the community?

What's another current
event that's connected?

What is a text that you read?

A song that's coming to mind?

You know, a, a class, a science class.

We just did this thing and
that reminds me of this thing.

You know, any kind of connection
and you open it wide up.

And enabling people to almost storytell
as a form of instruction, but they get

to be the experts in their own lives
and the experts of the content that

they're bringing in is super cool and
also depolarizing, especially when

you're talking about hard topics.

So there's kind of the human element
of grappling with emotion in those

conversations, getting to know
everyone else's stories and experiences

and the agency that students have.

and adults have in conversations like
this, to bring in their own wisdom

to the conversation and feel listened
to because no one can interrupt.

And then usually what I'll do as a
closing there might be, all right,

I'm going to put up a bunch of
words that are like skill words.

So for example, vulnerability
emotional regulation, like things that

were required in this conversation.

Like, which did you feel like
you did really well in today?

So everyone ends on a success.

And then they can just share that one
phrase as they go around to a close.

Sorry, that was a lot of talking.

Frederick: No, that's great.

You mentioned depolarization, so one thing
I can imagine some listeners are thinking

as you're going through this is, Whoa,
I'd be concerned about putting in a circle

that's going to open up all this stuff.

We live in this weird space where we
have to deal with this stuff, but it's

all become so red hot flammable as well.

So we're kind of trapped.

So in what ways is circle depolarizing?

.
Lindsay: So, oh my gosh, I love
how you're asking this question.

I think Anytime you can speak
from the I, so I think about this

even in just like interpersonal
conflict resolution training.

Anytime you can speak from the I, and
to truly speak from the I, not like,

I don't like what you just said, but
like, I'm feeling X, you know, and

here's the story that's behind that.

I think the invitation to share a story.

is immediately humanizing.

So it kind of decreases this
need to be right or wrong or

put people into categories.

It invites emotion.

I'm thinking about Dr.

Sheree Bridges Patrick and I published
a framework for analyzing what types

of discussion kind of are present.

And you can have multiple types of these.

So it's not like one or the other,
but in generative mobilizing

That's the type we want to have.

We're open to the disequilibrium, kind
of feeling a little bit of discomfort

because it invites change and possibility,
and it connects with our emotions.

So one of the things that we
see is polarizing discourse

kind of entrenches us, right?

We don't invite that disequilibrium or
or We might feel a disequilibrium, but we

don't invite the imagination possibility.

But another thing that's very
popular in especially white liberal

spaces is we intellectualize.

So we can academically say, I say this
all the time, like, I heard a podcast

that said blah, blah, blah, right?

And I'm leaving it in the head space,
but I don't have the heart space.

I'm not, like, feeling any emotion,
because I'm academically talking about

something that's not my own story.

I'm just repeating what I heard.

And I think that's very common when
we talk about issues of injustice,

or really, like, anything, right?

Any academic thing.

It's like, well, I'm just
regurgitating this information.

But I'm not personally connecting to it,
and so I'm less likely to remember it.

less likely to actually impact
my life and people are probably

going to tune out when I speak.

But if I have a story to share and
I'm invited to make that connection

and choose the type of connection
and the degree of the connection that

I make, people are going to be more
engaged in listening and I'm going to

feel better about sharing and we have
that generative mobilizing discourse.

Frederick: So when you and I kind of had
a preliminary conversation about what this

podcast might look like, and we were both
excited about this idea of, of student

voice, and I'd asked about, well, you
know, I could see teachers wanting, yes,

that sounds great, but that also sounds
like one of those things that can get

really messy and, and run off the rails.

And, and you said, well,
circle is one really safe.

Space to start.

And so we've started to unpack that.

And then we talked about.

We want to make sure that coming out of
this assistant principals can kind of

see how can I introduce this to teachers
and it's not, Hey, I heard this circles

thing and you need to go do that.

This looks like, right?

We don't even have to sell it.

What we can do is let people
experience it and then they can

decide whether or not they want to
take that back to their classrooms.

I think that's a really key point.

We're going to help assistant principals.

Think about how to go do this with
teachers, and I would suggest don't

go do it with teachers because you
want them to go do it with their kids.

Go do this with teachers because
you value teacher voice in the same

way that you want your students
to value student voice, right?

So don't do this.

Because you want the next generation
effect, do it because you're going to

value the immediate impact and so to,
have and foster more teacher voice at

the end of a professional development
or at the end of some meeting that

we have, whatever excuse I can have
to get teachers together, I want to

bring their voices and I know because
I've been listening to Lindsay now,

A simple way to do that is circle.

So I'm the AP, I've got
all these teachers there.

We just finished whatever we finished
and I'm going to, take a step out

and we're going to do a circle.

What should I do?

Lindsay: Oh, such a good question.

Okay.

So in something, in a situation like that
where you had your typical meeting and now

we're reflecting, I might do a very quick.

Circle.

So it might be how are
you all feeling in a pose?

Right?

And so that's another again, thinking
about UDL is really important.

Universal design for learning.

So not everyone loves speaking.

And so giving people
different opportunities.

It could be how are you feeling in a pose?

It could be everyone.

What am I trying to say?

Oh, take an index card and draw, right?

It could, it could be some other modality.

It could be literally find a picture
on your phone or a meme or something

and hold it up to the group, right?

Around like how you're
feeling in this moment.

But get that emotion.

there.

What's the emotion?

Just do an emotion check.

You can also do that at the beginning,
especially if you're going to introduce

a new pedagogical practice or some change
that people might be a little averse to.

Like, let's feel the temperature
of the room right now, right?

Like quick, quick circle.

And then I would ask for like a
next step or an experience that you.

Either have had that connects to
what we're learning or that you want

to have kind of visioning what is
possible With whatever it is you learn.

Let's say you just learn a new
tech tool or something, right?

And it's like how might this
bring joy to your students?

For example might be the prompt
and everyone will share like

their ideal scenario barrier free.

They're not thinking about the
challenges They're just putting out

there their wish and then you might
end with something like a group clap or

an inspiring quote to end the circle.

I also would say you can do
a circle as an entire PD.

So especially if there's something
to talk about, but also to

just model quality practice.

So I have a bunch of slides that
are like, if you have an hour with

staff, here's how to do a circle.

for the entire hour.

And here's how I would build.

So there's like three in a
row that I would do over time.

Build community values
and agreements first.

Then you talk about circle practice
story of name, and then you do something

challenging like current events within the
community or news item that we talk about.

Frederick: But Lindsay, if I have
everybody in a circle for the entire

PD, how are teachers going to sit in
the back row and grade their papers?

Exactly.

You mean I have to be engaged?

Okay.

I'm thinking through a lot of this and
I can just see so many opportunities.

I love the idea that let's just wait in
and try this and see how this goes, right?

Because that's another thing as
leaders we need to do if we want.

Teachers to grow and be
willing to take risks.

We need to be willing to do that too.

, and again, instead of coming in and
saying, Hey, there's this new tool

for student voice, I can go in and
say, I know that the wisdom is in

the room and I need to be better
about giving voice to that wisdom.

So this is something I heard on this
goofy podcast, two people talking about.

Using a circle to promote teacher
voice, and I want to try it out.

Here's how it would work.

Are you okay to do this?

Hopefully enough people will nod their
heads and you can claim permission.

and then we can circle up and do that.

Lindsay: One of the things that just
came to mind as well as, as you're

thinking about the human centered
part of what you're talking about.

I think sometimes When you were speaking,
I was just thinking of the teacher who

just wants to be heard, like maybe they're
literally not heard in their classes

and the students are disruptive and they
just want to focus on them for a minute.

It's nice to have that
space for that reason.

It's also nice for
people to be appreciated.

And so one of the other things that I
can put in, in this link, I'll, I'll give

for your audience is values in action.

It's a resource.

It's a website.

They came up with like 20 or so
values or strengths, character

strengths, and it's a bunch of positive
psychologists who were like, let's talk

about positive strengths of people.

And so I actually printed
them all out and put them out

on , the wall of my classroom.

And we would do a circle where it was
turned to your left and say something

positive about the person next to you.

And I tried this without the resource.

Nothing.

Or like, that person is nice.

You know, something really generic.

I like your shirt.

Exactly.

And then once we got the language
up there, it was like, I appreciate

your sense of humor because I
was having a tough day and you

made a joke and made me laugh.

Thank you.

You know, it gives voice and opportunity
and specificity to those opportunities.

And, and it gives the opportunity for
each teacher to feel like someone sees

me and they said something nice about
me, even if I had the worst day, even if

I had the best day, that's really cool.

And I feel good about that.

I don't think any teacher
would rebel against that idea.

, Frederick: I'm also thinking about the
easiest ways maybe to try this out.

So for me, it's been comfortable
doing the way I close it, but , we

always begin with celebrations.

We're usually parked at our table
or, you know, whatever our kind

of workspace arrangement is to do
that, but we could begin that in a

circle that could be, isn't that the
easiest, simplest circle to do right?

Hey, before we get going, y'all,
let's stay in a circle and go

around and what are you celebrating?

And again, you've got choice.

Right.

Cause I choose what I celebrate,
but you're giving this opportunity

for connections because as people
celebrate, I'm going to hear parts of

my own life, maybe reflected in that.

And everybody's getting voice
because it's their celebration.

So you're hitting all three choice
connection and self right in that.

And it's so simple.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Oh, I love that.

And there's more attention paid, I think,
to one another sharing versus when you're

at tables, because then people can be
distracted by their phones or, you know,

you can't hide a cell phone in your lap
when there's no furniture in between you.

So you're looking at the speaker.

And I also think I used to work for Life
is Good Foundation for the Playmakers.

And they used to always do Positive News
Ball as like the share out celebration.

So I was thinking you could combine
this with another circle practice

I've seen where it's just where you
pass a ball around the circle as

like an imaginary talking piece.

And you can make it like a really
big ball and it's so heavy.

And then the next person is like
hitting it to the next person.

So you could do like positive news
ball or something, and then just have a

little bit of movement in there too, to
just make it, you used the word goofy.

And I was like, yes, this is the ticket.

Frederick: I love it.

It sounds like something
that's just so flexible.

It's something that we can really
should do with teachers, right?

We should be elevating voice.

And this is a really
strong tool for doing that.

And Oh, by the way.

Teachers might also embrace
it and then use that as a

tool to elevate student voice.

So kind of sounds like
a win, win, win to me.

, the only other thing I'm
thinking about is to me, this

seems like this is a procedure,?

And I know after the second time we've
done this with a group, they know

at the end I put that slide up and
everybody's getting up and we're going

into our circle and, and we're doing it.

So.

As a classroom procedure, from a
teacher perspective to students,

are there teaching points that
I need to lay out for them?

And then how would that translate into
me as an AP doing this with teachers?

Lindsay: Yeah, I would do it the same,
AP to staff and teacher to students.

And I think really it is a
shared agreement that you

want to co create if you can.

If this is the first time you're
rolling it out, I would say use a couple

standard agreements for the procedure.

So for example, we will always you know,
help create a circle with our chairs

and move the desks out of the way.

We will...

We will put our index cards with
all the important people's names on

them in the center as a centerpiece.

We will pass the talking piece, and
I usually do have the caveat that

they can say pass, but I, I have to
require them to say the word pass

to be able to engage in some way.

Like, I'm making a choice.

I'm, I'm choosing to pass.

And we will, never interrupt.

And that includes the circle keeper.

So whether that's the AP facilitating the
staff circle or the teacher facilitating

students unless there's an emergency.

And so that was really important for me
because I was, you know, often as teachers

and leaders were giving directions.

Here, you need to comply to these
things I'm telling you to do.

And for this one, it's here's my
commitment to you and the circle process.

I'm not going to interrupt.

If I see someone talking, I might try
to give them eyes, you know, like, but

I'm not going to speak because that's
the commitment I made to you all.

Unless someone's in imminent danger
or someone's being, you know, really

rude and screaming or something.

Frederick: And so I can think of
those agreements as kind of the.

The bullet points of teaching, maybe
I should call them piece points, given

what we're talking about , but the main
points we're agreeing to hold the circle.

You can pass, but you need to say
pass so that we know, and then

we are going to hold the space
for people and not interrupt.

Lindsay: The only other thing
I would add to that, which is

actually something that I learned.

Because this happened is when you create
a space like this, even if you're not

talking about something like, for example,
gender based violence, there are some

students who will feel so comfortable in
that space and have not felt that comfort

anywhere else that they will come up to
you afterwards or they will share in the

circle some sort of something happening
in their lives that now as a mandated

reporter, you have to now do this thing.

So I have Decided to have that as
one of my rules or like kind of like

asterisk at the bottom of the rules
like just so you know If you want to

share anything that I need to report
that includes harm to yourself or others

I like need to do these next steps.

Just know that You can absolutely
share it, but I don't want to violate

your trust by not telling you ahead
of time So for teachers particularly I

would include that and I like I said,
I learned the hard way on that one

Frederick: I'd never thought about
that, but I know exactly what you're

talking about when somebody opens up
something that you were not ready for.

And in a way it's a beautiful moment
and in another way it is scary as hell.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Frederick: Okay.

Lindsay, this has been fun.

Hopefully y'all listening are going
to think about the next meeting

you have and it doesn't need to
be a room full of people, right?

We could do this with five people.

If you're not sure where to
start, maybe just start with the

celebration before you get going.

Hey, let's stand in a circle and just go
around and say what we're celebrating.

And then it, you can also use it
as closing, but then I think you've

already given some insights into
different ways that we could do this.

And it seems another really easy
tip is keeping your prompt kind

of open ended and let people
interpret that any way they want.

And it's simple way that's going
to play out is in celebration.

Somebody's going to say, well,
personal or professional.

It's up to you, right?

Absolutely.

Ah, okay.

I have a couple more questions for you.

Yeah.

Number one, what part of your
own leadership are you still

trying to get better at?

Lindsay: So many parts
to narrow it to one.

Let's see.

I want to be a better listener.

I think Circle is actually, that's
one of the reasons I gravitate to it.

It's a, it's a growth area for me.

So, I do a lot of talking when I give
webinars or presentations, but, like,

my joy, but also the gap in my skills
is, like, being able to sit And truly,

deeply listen when people are talking.

And I think, like I said, it's joyful.

And it's also an area where , I
could be so much better.

Frederick: Thank you.

If listeners could take away just one
thing from today's show, what would it be?

Practically.

Lindsay: I'm going to cheat.

Practically the circle practice
and doing that in any way.

Mindset wise, I think what is
more important, but it might be

less tangible, is the idea and the
question of how can I co create today?

How can I invite voice today?

Frederick: I think we just hit
the title of this podcast show.

Excellent.

Lindsay: I love those moments.

Frederick: That is such a great thing.

And I think if there was only one
thing I could say to a leader every

morning, it would be be present, look
for opportunities to be present.

And I bring that up because I
think that this idea of co creation

and presence go hand in hand.

If I'm fully present, we're co creating.

And if we're not able to co
create, it's because we're not

present and they go together.

So I just think that's so beautiful.

And I thank you for giving us another,
lens through which to view relationships

and what creates a quality relationship.

Lindsay: Thank you for the opportunity.

This has been so fun.

Frederick: Yes, it has.

And Lindsay, where can people find
out more about you and your work?

Where can they?

Tap into some of those resources
and you're going to tell us, but I

know you do a lot of tremendous work
with schools and school districts

and helping them, embrace and work
through what can be really challenging.

So necessary practices.

So let's learn more about what you're

Lindsay: doing.

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

So I am on lindsaybethlyons.

com.

That's my website and everything is there.

So there's a podcast called
Time for Teachership.

Like the guests are amazing.

Frederick's going to be on my podcast.

So everyone tuned into that episode and.

I have a lot of my, you
know, offers on there.

But primarily what I do are , two things.

One is the pedagogy of student voice.

So how do we literally build that up?

How do we coach teachers and
coach leadership teams to

support teachers structurally?

'cause that's important with
those opportunities to co-create.

And then the other piece, which is
very closely related, is designing

curriculum for justice and co-creation.

And so that's really tough to
grapple with all the choices that

you need to make when you're.

You're designing curriculum for
intersectional justice, but then also

when you're co creating, how do you
design a curriculum ahead of time that

gives flexibility and space for co
creation with each new group of students

that you teach the unit to, right?

So it's, it's a real balance
and it's definitely an art and

I absolutely love working with
departments to create some new units.

Right now, I've had an influx of
ideas and questions around US history.

Unit revisions.

And so that's been a big topic of
conversation for folks lately, but,

you know, also people who are like,
I want to teach art for justice.

And so what is that like?

So there's been some really cool
creation happening in that front.

Frederick: That's great.

Thank you for sharing.

Lindsay, is there anything else
before we leave that you would

like to leave our listeners?

Lindsay: I think just that Michael
Fielding in the, in the student voice

researcher space talks about this idea
of radical collegiality, this idea of

seeing students as colleagues and partners
is just so profound to me and really

speaks to what we've been talking about.

About there's that idea of the
intersection of, you know, in

instruction and human ness, right?

The learning and the human pieces that,
that blend together when we're truly in

partnership with students and what we
end up co creating both in the classroom,

pedagogically, instructionally, but
also for the school community, right?

When we partner with students in that
kind of colleague way is just profound.

So I guess I would just
leave it with that concept.

Frederick: Lindsay, thank you so much.

This has been so much fun.

You've brought so much for us to
be able to enact in a concrete

way, but I think also so much to
think about on the drive home.

Lindsay: Excellent.

Thanks so much, Frederick.

All right.

Frederick: Take care, Lindsay.

You too.

Bye.

This was one of those wonderful
interviews where I experienced

a couple of lightbulb moments.

Lindsay and I had met previously to
outline the show and agreed to focus on

the circle practice as an example of a
practice for enhancing student voice.

Lindsay had suggested that APs could
use this in their own work to model the

practice, so I knew we were going there.

It was only in the middle of the episode
that the light bulb went off for me, and

I realized that we were teaching you,
my colleague, to empower teacher voice.

And I love the term co creation.

I advocate for teachers to lead their
own growth, to lead in identifying

their goals and the process for growing.

I advocate that they lead,
but not that they go it alone.

And the word co creation
captures what I haven't really

been fully able to articulate.

We need to work with our teachers, and
in so doing, we provide choice, create

connection, and lift up individual voices.

I encourage you to try
using a simple circle.

If we want teachers to grow, then we also
need to model our own efforts to grow.

If this feels challenging, be transparent.

You can say something like, I heard about
this way to help me listen better to

you, and I thought I would try it out.

If it doesn't work,
blame the podcast folks.

And then go for it.

A smaller group will be
easier than a larger one.

Maybe a team meeting or something similar.

The important thing is to
try it and see what happens.

Remember there will be links to Lindsay
and her resources in the show notes.

If you want to learn more about me and my
materials, you can go to frederickbuskey.

com and that link is
also in the show notes.

I look forward to seeing you again
on Friday when we recap the week's

daily emails, please remember to
subscribe and rate this podcast

rating the show helps others find it.

And if you want to be a super
fan, consider leaving a review.

I'm Frederick Buskey, and thank you
again for joining me on this episode

of the assistant principal podcast.

Cheers.